Replace XFig (other posts are too old)

[Sensei]

Hi.

I didn't find how to cut a figure from a pdf/eps file so I'm trying to
get a latex-friendly vector graphics program.

I know XFig but it's soooo ugly to work with, it's really user-unfriendly!

I searched in google/google groups about an XFig replacement, and I
found Ipe (too buggy: I can't create even an arrow...) and some others,
like Sodipodi (which is NOT a XFig replacement).

Anyone knows how to get what I can with XFig? I need it...

[Daniel Wolk]

How about dia?

http://www.lysator.liu.se/~alla/dia/
Sensei> Hi. I didn't find how to cut a figure from a pdf/eps
Sensei> file so I'm trying to get a latex-friendly vector
Sensei> graphics program.


Sensei> I know XFig but it's soooo ugly to work with, it's
Sensei> really user-unfriendly!

Sensei> I searched in google/google groups about an XFig
Sensei> replacement, and I found Ipe (too buggy: I can't
Sensei> create even an arrow...) and some others, like
Sensei> Sodipodi (which is NOT a XFig replacement).


Sensei> Anyone knows how to get what I can with XFig? I need
Sensei> it... -- Sensei <mailto:senseiwa:tin.it>
Sensei> <icq:241572242>

Sensei> But still I fear, and still I dare not Laugh at the
Sensei> mad man (The Prophet's song)

[ADH]

Post by Sensei
I didn't find how to cut a figure from a pdf/eps file so I'm trying to
get a latex-friendly vector graphics program.
(snip)
Anyone knows how to get what I can with XFig? I need it...

The answer depends on what sort(s) of diagrams you want to create:
flow charts, bar and pie charts, function plots, diagrams for
Euclidean geometry, etc.

Despite the initial investment in effort, you may want to consider a
scripting language over a GUI program; it's very difficult (in the
Japanese sense) to create logically structured figures under a
graphical interface.

Post by Sensei
I know XFig but it's soooo ugly to work with, it's really user-unfriendly!

Please note that such a comment (which I'm sure you meant
good-naturedly:) can be unintentionally insulting. For example, the
maintainer of xfig participates here, as do many enthusiastic users of
xfig...

Best regards,

Andy

Andrew D. Hwang
Dept of Mathematics and CS
College of the Holy Cross
Worcester, MA, 01610-2395, USA

[Sensei]

Post by ADH
flow charts, bar and pie charts, function plots, diagrams for
Euclidean geometry, etc.

Essentially, in software engineering we use all kind of diagrams, from
pumps & Co to UML schemes. Dia is quite good, but the fact is that XFig
can use Latex fonts... while Dia can't...

Post by ADH
Despite the initial investment in effort, you may want to consider a
scripting language over a GUI program; it's very difficult (in the
Japanese sense) to create logically structured figures under a
graphical interface.

Like latex code? No, thanks! :)

Post by ADH
Please note that such a comment (which I'm sure you meant
good-naturedly:) can be unintentionally insulting.

I never meant to insult anyone... If someone feels to be offended,
please excuse me.

Post by ADH
For example, the
maintainer of xfig participates here, as do many enthusiastic users of
xfig...

There are some bad issues about XFig: the worst it's portability. XFig
can be used only with X, so MacOSX and Windows are off-limits (osx has
an X server, but my students are not aware of this...).

Another issue is the ui... oldish. Maybe the right compromise is to use
graphic libraries like Qt, GTK+ or wxWindows.

It's just a comment: it's good to improve functionalities with the
greatest ease for non-powerusers like students (a click selects an
object, pressing ``Del'' deletes it, Ctr-C/V/X/Z...). Xfig is not
student-friendly :) (at least not my undergrads...)

[Tim Love]

Post by Sensei
There are some bad issues about XFig: the worst it's portability.

A java port of some sort exists, I think. But many other programs
are far less portable.

Post by Sensei
It's just a comment: it's good to improve functionalities with the
greatest ease for non-powerusers like students (a click selects an
object, pressing ``Del'' deletes it, Ctr-C/V/X/Z...).

Sadly nowadays (and I speak as a Mac user) "non-intuitive" often means
"it's not Windows". I think xfig is more designed around the idea that you
choose the operation and *then* the object(s). Once students realise this
(and are shown the short-cuts for paste, etc) they usually cope ok. I
wrote
http://www-h.eng.cam.ac.uk/help/tpl/graphics/xfig/xfig.html
a while ago for the stubborn cases.

[Sensei]

Post by Tim Love
A java port of some sort exists, I think. But many other programs
are far less portable.

I don't like java :) I prefer native binaries --- so source code
portability, not pseudo-executables.

Post by Tim Love
Sadly nowadays (and I speak as a Mac user) "non-intuitive" often means
"it's not Windows". I think xfig is more designed around the idea that you
choose the operation and *then* the object(s). Once students realise this
(and are shown the short-cuts for paste, etc) they usually cope ok. I

I use mac and xfig does not respect mac standards. You can't use cmd+q,
cmd+i. Students are dumb with ``non windows'' softwares, you're right.
But I know it's better to project really stupid GUIs student-proof, with
something ``advanced'' for powerusers.

Post by Tim Love
http://www-h.eng.cam.ac.uk/help/tpl/graphics/xfig/xfig.html
a while ago for the stubborn cases.

Good. I'll let them know.

[David L. Elliott]

Post by Tim Love
A java port of some sort exists, I think. But many other programs
are far less portable.

It works well, even using a Webshare version.
http://tech-www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/applets/jfig/

David

[Maurizio Loreti]

Post by Sensei
There are some bad issues about XFig: the worst it's portability.

XFig is not intended to be portable; it is a graphic tool for Unix
systems. Don't blame XFig if you do not use Unix; it's *your* fault.

Example: books are not intended to be read in the water. Don't blame
the publisher if your book degrades in the bathtub.

Post by Sensei
Another issue is the ui... oldish. Maybe the right compromise is to
use graphic libraries like Qt, GTK+ or wxWindows.

You are welcome to write a replacement to XFig; or to contact XFig
very responsive maintainer and to collaborate with him to XFig itself
to make it portable and to add whatever enhancement you want --- it's
free software, you know. You get A LOT MORE THAN what you paid for.

[Sensei]

Post by Maurizio Loreti
XFig is not intended to be portable; it is a graphic tool for Unix
systems. Don't blame XFig if you do not use Unix; it's *your* fault.

If you look at my headers, I use linux. Since 5 years. The problem is
with undergrads.

Post by Maurizio Loreti
Example: books are not intended to be read in the water. Don't blame
the publisher if your book degrades in the bathtub.

I'm keen with source code portability, so it's quite normal to have same
tools on different platforms. Latex can be used with unix, osx and
windows. Xfig needs an X server.

Post by Maurizio Loreti
You are welcome to write a replacement to XFig; or to contact XFig
very responsive maintainer and to collaborate with him to XFig itself
to make it portable and to add whatever enhancement you want --- it's
free software, you know. You get A LOT MORE THAN what you paid for.

That's what I'm intended to do. Something that students can use easily
without coming in my room complaininig about something stupid.

[Wilfried Hennings]

Post by Sensei
There are some bad issues about XFig: the worst it's portability.

If that were the only one, there is a Java port:
http://tech-www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/applets/jfig/


--
email me: change "nospam" to "w.hennings"
Dipl.-Ing.(=M.Sc.Eng.) Wilfried Hennings c./o.
Forschungszentrum (Research Center) Juelich GmbH, MUT
<http://www.fz-juelich.de/mut/index.php?index=3>
All opinions mentioned are strictly my own, not my employer's.

[Ralf Stubner]

Post by Sensei
There are some bad issues about XFig: the worst it's portability. XFig
can be used only with X, so MacOSX and Windows are off-limits (osx has
an X server, but my students are not aware of this...).

Well, there is a Java version (jfig) and a Windows port (winfig) ...

Post by Sensei
Another issue is the ui... oldish. Maybe the right compromise is to
use graphic libraries like Qt, GTK+ or wxWindows.

Under Unix and Co you also have sketch, sodipodi, dia, ... There might
exist ports for some of these.

cheerio
ralf

[Brian V. Smith]

Post by Sensei
There are some bad issues about XFig: the worst it's portability. XFig
can be used only with X, so MacOSX and Windows are off-limits (osx has
an X server, but my students are not aware of this...).

That's funny - xfig is probably the *most* portable of all drawing
programs *because* it runs on any platform that has an X server, i.e.
all Unix/Linuxes, Windows (Cygnus) and Mac (Planet X, MI/X or eXodus or
any of another half-dozen).

Post by Sensei
Another issue is the ui... oldish. Maybe the right compromise is to use
graphic libraries like Qt, GTK+ or wxWindows.

You're right about this because xfig was written about 14 years ago when
there was only the Athena widget set.
I plan to update it to GTK or something much more modern, but that
is a major undertaking.

[Dong Hoon Van Uytsel]

Post by Brian V. Smith

Post by Sensei
Another issue is the ui... oldish. Maybe the right compromise is to use
graphic libraries like Qt, GTK+ or wxWindows.

You're right about this because xfig was written about 14 years
ago when there was only the Athena widget set. I plan to update
it to GTK or something much more modern, but that is a major
undertaking.

xfig's UI maybe doesn't _look_ modern, but its UI is really fast
once one gets acquainted with the (single key) shortcuts. also
combination mouse + arrow keys for panning is very handy. it
would be regrettable if these shortcuts disappeared in favour of
some GTK make-up.

apart from xfig's UI, its export facility to combined
latex+eps(pdf) is unique.

[Maurizio Loreti]

Post by Dong Hoon Van Uytsel

Post by Brian V. Smith

Post by Sensei
Another issue is the ui... oldish. Maybe the right compromise is to use
graphic libraries like Qt, GTK+ or wxWindows.

You're right about this because xfig was written about 14 years
ago when there was only the Athena widget set. I plan to update
it to GTK or something much more modern, but that is a major
undertaking.

xfig's UI maybe doesn't _look_ modern, but its UI is really fast
once one gets acquainted with the (single key) shortcuts. also
combination mouse + arrow keys for panning is very handy. it
would be regrettable if these shortcuts disappeared in favour of
some GTK make-up.
apart from xfig's UI, its export facility to combined
latex+eps(pdf) is unique.

Agreed. I am using XFig from *ages*; and its strong points, for me,
are the easiness of use, and the LaTeX+PS export mode. In addition
several times I have used pstoedit to translate from PS to XFig
figures grabbed on the net, to be edited and reused.

Since Mr. Smith is reading the thread, I want to express all my thanks
to him for having developed, maintained and given to the free software
community XFig. Thank you!

[Jay Belanger]

Post by Dong Hoon Van Uytsel

Post by Brian V. Smith

Post by Sensei
Another issue is the ui... oldish. Maybe the right compromise is to use
graphic libraries like Qt, GTK+ or wxWindows.

You're right about this because xfig was written about 14 years
ago when there was only the Athena widget set. I plan to update
it to GTK or something much more modern, but that is a major
undertaking.

xfig's UI maybe doesn't _look_ modern, but its UI is really fast
once one gets acquainted with the (single key) shortcuts.

I think the UI looks pretty good. I played with my Xdefaults to
pretty it up a bit, and I like it. I've seen other drawing programs
use the modern widget sets and still look bad and be hard to use.
Old widgets and well thought out is infinitely superior to new
widgets and poorly thought out. Overall, I don't think the widget
set is that important.

Jay

[Lucian Wischik]

Post by Jay Belanger
I think the UI looks pretty good. I played with my Xdefaults to
pretty it up a bit, and I like it. I've seen other drawing programs
use the modern widget sets and still look bad and be hard to use.

When the earlier poster said "oldish UI" everyone seemed to have
interpreted that as the widget set. I understood it to mean the use of
an "operation then data" paradigm, rather than the "select then
modify" paradigm that seems to have pretty much replaced it in vector
drawing programs.

--
Lucian

[Sensei]

Post by Dong Hoon Van Uytsel
xfig's UI maybe doesn't _look_ modern, but its UI is really fast
once one gets acquainted with the (single key) shortcuts. also
combination mouse + arrow keys for panning is very handy. it
would be regrettable if these shortcuts disappeared in favour of
some GTK make-up.

Nothing of that. Using a toolkit like gtk, makes the general look quite
modern... but the most important issue is about portability. Very little
of my students use unix, most of them windows. They don't want to
install cygwin and just use miktex as a gui. The lack of xfig is evident.

Using the Qt library to write xfig will make it portable on every
platform. On unix and osx the library is free, on windows is under
payment, but wait a little and I think they will release a gpl version
of the library for every platform.

Post by Dong Hoon Van Uytsel
apart from xfig's UI, its export facility to combined
latex+eps(pdf) is unique.

That's why I think xfig must be rewritten to make it portable... and
modern looking for students of course! :)

[Michael Piefel]

Post by Sensei
Using the Qt library to write xfig will make it portable on every
platform. On unix and osx the library is free, on windows is under
payment, but wait a little and I think they will release a gpl version
of the library for every platform.

Using GTK+ will also make it portable on every platform. GTK+ is also
completely free even on windows.

Bye,
Mike

[Sensei]

Post by Michael Piefel
Using GTK+ will also make it portable on every platform. GTK+ is also
completely free even on windows.

Yes, but the fact is that GTK it's C-based, while Qt is a C++ library
with an incredible ease of use (our department uses qt). Note that GTK
needs X, and there's a port of GTK+ for Win32. Qt is more platform
independent than GTK, I used GTK+ and Qt, so I decided to buy an
academic license for our dept.

[Michael Piefel]

Post by Sensei
Yes, but the fact is that GTK it's C-based, while Qt is a C++ library
with an incredible ease of use (our department uses qt).

The implementation language is irrelevant. There is gtk--, if you want a
C++ wrapper around GTK+. Also the use of GTK+ is quite easy as well.

Post by Sensei
Note that GTK needs X, and there's a port of GTK+ for Win32.

You contradict yourself. GTK+ needs GDK. As soon as you have a GDK port,
you can use GTK+.

Post by Sensei
Qt is more platform independent than GTK, I used GTK+ and Qt, so I
decided to buy an academic license for our dept.

I don't believe Qt is more platform independent. You can get both toolkits
for every platform you care for. Also not everyone can afford Qt, not
everyone is in an academic environment. I don't say Qt is bad in any
respect (I'm sure it's great), I just think you overestimate its
advantages.

Anyway, this is way off for comp.text.tex, and I shut up now.

Bye,
Mike

[Sensei]

Post by Michael Piefel
The implementation language is irrelevant. There is gtk--, if you want a
C++ wrapper around GTK+. Also the use of GTK+ is quite easy as well.

Too many things. Qt produces the cleanest code I'd ever seen. Really
impressive (I used GTK and it's not even a half).

Post by Michael Piefel
I don't believe Qt is more platform independent. You can get both toolkits
for every platform you care for. Also not everyone can afford Qt, not
everyone is in an academic environment. I don't say Qt is bad in any
respect (I'm sure it's great), I just think you overestimate its
advantages.

Well, of course qt is expensive for a simple user, but the only version
under payment is Qt for Windows. Note that it will for sure be released
under QPL (GPL-like license).

The great advantage about qt is the extreme simplicity: you can't
compare C++ and C, just think about something like

myWindow = new QMainWindow(this, "main window", QImage(...

and

myWindow = (wndWindow *) malloc(...

And this is a really silly example.


I'd like to contribute to an Qt port of XFig.

[Michael Lake]

Post by Michael Piefel

Post by Sensei
Using the Qt library to write xfig will make it portable on every
platform. On unix and osx the library is free, on windows is under
payment, but wait a little and I think they will release a gpl version
of the library for every platform.

Using GTK+ will also make it portable on every platform. GTK+ is also
completely free even on windows.

There is also wxWindows, have a look at http://www.wxWindows.org
It's Open Source and uses the native widget set for the platform your building on
whether Linux, OSX or MS Windows.

Mike

[Sensei]

Post by Michael Lake
There is also wxWindows, have a look at http://www.wxWindows.org
It's Open Source and uses the native widget set for the platform your
building on whether Linux, OSX or MS Windows.
Mike

Yes, it's true. Two object-oriented tools for multiplatform developement
available.

[Brian V. Smith]

Post by Dong Hoon Van Uytsel

Post by Brian V. Smith

Post by Sensei
Another issue is the ui... oldish. Maybe the right compromise is to use
graphic libraries like Qt, GTK+ or wxWindows.

You're right about this because xfig was written about 14 years
ago when there was only the Athena widget set. I plan to update
it to GTK or something much more modern, but that is a major
undertaking.

xfig's UI maybe doesn't _look_ modern, but its UI is really fast
once one gets acquainted with the (single key) shortcuts. also
combination mouse + arrow keys for panning is very handy. it
would be regrettable if these shortcuts disappeared in favour of
some GTK make-up.

Don't worry - I'll never get rid of the shortcuts :-)

Post by Dong Hoon Van Uytsel
apart from xfig's UI, its export facility to combined
latex+eps(pdf) is unique.

That's because xfig/transfig have a faithful and helpful community
of LaTeX users and contributers that are always keeping me on my toes :-)

[Brent W Lievers]

Post by Brian V. Smith

Post by Dong Hoon Van Uytsel
xfig's UI maybe doesn't _look_ modern, but its UI is really fast
once one gets acquainted with the (single key) shortcuts. also
combination mouse + arrow keys for panning is very handy. it
would be regrettable if these shortcuts disappeared in favour of
some GTK make-up.

Don't worry - I'll never get rid of the shortcuts :-)

Post by Dong Hoon Van Uytsel
apart from xfig's UI, its export facility to combined
latex+eps(pdf) is unique.

That's because xfig/transfig have a faithful and helpful community
of LaTeX users and contributers that are always keeping me on my toes :-)

Hmmm... Perhaps a little OT, but I have a feature request and this
thread jogged my memory ;-)

Would it be difficult to add a "Move Point to Point" capability? By this
I mean you would select a point to move as usual, then select a second,
such that first become coincident with the second?

As mentioned by another poster recently, I often use pstoedit to convert
Postscript files to fig for editing. Generally, the points of splines do
not line up with the grid, leading to rough interfaces when I manually try
and line up/connect points. In some cases I have resorted to editing the
fig file directly.

I cannot speak for others, but I personally would find it very useful.

Just a thought. Regardless, thank you for your wonderful work with
xfig. It is a great tool that I use quite frequently.

Brent

[Brian V. Smith]

Post by Brent W Lievers

Post by Brian V. Smith
That's because xfig/transfig have a faithful and helpful community
of LaTeX users and contributers that are always keeping me on my toes :-)

Hmmm... Perhaps a little OT, but I have a feature request and this
thread jogged my memory ;-)
Would it be difficult to add a "Move Point to Point" capability? By this
I mean you would select a point to move as usual, then select a second,
such that first become coincident with the second?
As mentioned by another poster recently, I often use pstoedit to convert
Postscript files to fig for editing. Generally, the points of splines do
not line up with the grid, leading to rough interfaces when I manually try
and line up/connect points. In some cases I have resorted to editing the
fig file directly.
I cannot speak for others, but I personally would find it very useful.
Just a thought. Regardless, thank you for your wonderful work with
xfig. It is a great tool that I use quite frequently.

I'll add that to the short TODO list (as opposed to the longer, "maybe I'll
get to it someday, yeah, right" TODO list).

xfig needs more positioning features to align objects to other objects/parts
and this is a noteworthy one.

Thanks for the input!
Brian

[Ralf Angeli]

Post by Brian V. Smith
Thanks for the input!

Well, I might have some input as well, i.e. a feature request. What I
have always been missing was a way to use italics with the sans serif
font in the LaTeX font selection. Currently I am exporting my
pictures to PS/LaTeX and then making the necessary changes in the
pstex_t file manually. Obviously they are lost when I change the FIG
file and export it again.

An easy remedy could be to add some more buttons for the various sans
serif font series and shapes to the font selection panel. A more
elegant way to solve the problem could be the introduction of a new
font selection panel which uses drop down boxes for the selection of
fonts according to the LaTeX font selection scheme, i.e. choices for
font family, series, shape and size.

I tried to do the former myself but I did not succeed as the relevant
code seems to be spread over several files and I did not quite
understand it. )c: Hopefully you will find this suggestion worth to be
included in one of your todo files. (c:

Anyway, thank you for your good work.

Cheers,
Ralf

[Enrico]

Post by Sensei

Post by ADH
flow charts, bar and pie charts, function plots, diagrams for
Euclidean geometry, etc.

Essentially, in software engineering we use all kind of diagrams, from
pumps & Co to UML schemes. Dia is quite good, but the fact is that XFig
can use Latex fonts... while Dia can't...

Post by ADH
Despite the initial investment in effort, you may want to consider a
scripting language over a GUI program; it's very difficult (in the
Japanese sense) to create logically structured figures under a
graphical interface.

Like latex code? No, thanks! :)

Post by ADH
Please note that such a comment (which I'm sure you meant
good-naturedly:) can be unintentionally insulting.

I never meant to insult anyone... If someone feels to be offended,
please excuse me.

Post by ADH
For example, the
maintainer of xfig participates here, as do many enthusiastic users of
xfig...

There are some bad issues about XFig: the worst it's portability. XFig
can be used only with X, so MacOSX and Windows are off-limits (osx has
an X server, but my students are not aware of this...).

Maybe somebody should just make them aware that you can easily install
XFig on Mac OS X using fink (fink.sourceforge.net).

Enrico
http://www.ozone.ch/enrico/

[Sensei]

Post by Enrico
Maybe somebody should just make them aware that you can easily install
XFig on Mac OS X using fink (fink.sourceforge.net).

Have you ever tried to make students use xfig? It's nearly impossible:
they would immediately throw it away.

[Brian V. Smith]

Post by Sensei

Post by Enrico
Maybe somebody should just make them aware that you can easily install
XFig on Mac OS X using fink (fink.sourceforge.net).

they would immediately throw it away.

Now you're being insulting again.

I have had email from several professors over the many years of xfig tell
me how easy it was for their students to get up and running with xfig in
very little time.
Let's stick to facts and dump the hyperbole.

[Jay Belanger]

Sensei <***@nowhere.org> writes:
...

Post by Sensei
they would immediately throw it away.

Huh? What are you talking about?
Once I show xfig to somebody, they knock me to the side and
immediately start using it for drawing figures.

[Robin Fairbairns]

Post by Jay Belanger
...

Post by Sensei
they would immediately throw it away.

Huh? What are you talking about?
Once I show xfig to somebody, they knock me to the side and
immediately start using it for drawing figures.

maybe sensei's users, who are by his/her own admission mac users, are
sensitive souls and can't do with being shown things.

[Sensei]

Post by Robin Fairbairns
maybe sensei's users, who are by his/her own admission mac users, are
sensitive souls and can't do with being shown things.

When they have to write their dissertation, they should use xfig. When I
show them how to install it --- so x11/darwin or cygwin --- they reject
totally the idea. They want something more point-and-click.

I must admit they're right, students are addicted to a mac behaviour
(also windows uses mac ideas about gui). They accept to use matlab as
it's keyboard driven and has a nice look... those are my students... :(

[Giuseppe Bilotta]

Post by Sensei

Post by Robin Fairbairns
maybe sensei's users, who are by his/her own admission mac users, are
sensitive souls and can't do with being shown things.

When they have to write their dissertation, they should use xfig. When I
show them how to install it --- so x11/darwin or cygwin --- they reject
totally the idea. They want something more point-and-click.

MetaGraf. It's written in Java so I expect it to be somewhat
portable.

[Maarten Sneep]

Post by Giuseppe Bilotta

Post by Sensei
When they have to write their dissertation, they should use xfig. When I
show them how to install it --- so x11/darwin or cygwin --- they reject
totally the idea. They want something more point-and-click.

MetaGraf. It's written in Java so I expect it to be somewhat
portable.

Or jfig2, which does an impressive impersonation of xFig using Swing
java code. If Java is installed but X11 isn't (Mac OS X and Win XP come
to mind) this is probably the quickest way to get started (and read
those xFig files you get from others).

URL: http://tech-www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/applets/jfig/

HTH

Maarten