Discussion:
Texinfo or LaTeX?
(too old to reply)
Robert Lundqvist
2006-01-17 15:14:22 UTC
Permalink
I'm thinking about developing the production of manuals we put together
for our teaching. One of the ambitions is to produce HTML output, and
there seems to be at least two good ways to achieve this:

*Texinfo.

*Writing LaTeX-documents and filter them through latex2html or similar.

My question now is if there are any obvious advantages or disadvantages
with these? Are there any other good solutions, such as special packages
for writing manuals (yes, I am aware of LaTeX2man)? Experiences and/or
suggestions would be most welcome.

Robert
********************
Robert Lundqvist
Dept of mathematics
Lulea University of Technology
Sweden
FunkyRes
2006-01-17 18:38:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Lundqvist
I'm thinking about developing the production of manuals we put together
for our teaching. One of the ambitions is to produce HTML output, and
*Texinfo.
*Writing LaTeX-documents and filter them through latex2html or similar.
My question now is if there are any obvious advantages or disadvantages
with these? Are there any other good solutions, such as special packages
for writing manuals (yes, I am aware of LaTeX2man)? Experiences and/or
suggestions would be most welcome.
I might be wrong - but I thought Texinfo was LaTeX

Anyway - look at tex4ht for html (or xml) output from LaTeX.
Robin Fairbairns
2006-01-17 20:28:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by FunkyRes
I might be wrong - but I thought Texinfo was LaTeX
latexinfo _was_ latex, but it's not been maintained for *years*, and
is definitely not recommended.

if i were starting a new documentation project, i would investigate
sgml docbook tools.
--
Robin Fairbairns, Cambridge
Torsten Bronger
2006-01-17 20:54:00 UTC
Permalink
Hallöchen!
Post by Robin Fairbairns
Post by FunkyRes
I might be wrong - but I thought Texinfo was LaTeX
latexinfo _was_ latex, but it's not been maintained for *years*,
and is definitely not recommended.
However, I'd like to recommend http://www.nongnu.org/texi2latex/
because (I did it and) it works very well. It's not perfect, mostly
due to bugs within the original Texinfo. On the other hand, it
solves issues which are yet unsolved in the original Texinfo
(floats, breaks in URLs, babel support).
Post by Robin Fairbairns
if i were starting a new documentation project, i would
investigate sgml docbook tools.
Well, I've been there and came back to Texinfo. It's more
convenient and easier to configure. By the way, it has decent
DocBook output.

Tschö,
Torsten.
--
Torsten Bronger, aquisgrana, europa vetus ICQ 264-296-646
Ertugrul Soeylemez
2006-01-18 01:25:27 UTC
Permalink
Hello Robert,
Post by Robert Lundqvist
I'm thinking about developing the production of manuals we put
together for our teaching. One of the ambitions is to produce HTML
*Texinfo.
*Writing LaTeX-documents and filter them through latex2html or similar.
My question now is if there are any obvious advantages or disadvantages
with these? Are there any other good solutions, such as special packages
for writing manuals (yes, I am aware of LaTeX2man)? Experiences and/or
suggestions would be most welcome.
Texinfo has a lot more native output formats (generated by makeinfo),
including HTML, plain text, Info and others, but excluding PDF, TeX and
DVI. The latter three output formats can be produced via external
translators like texi2pdf and texi2dvi. However, though it sounds
attractive, it's mainly intended to be used for software package
documentation. Hence the output is not of half of the quality of LaTeX
documents. Note that Texinfo doesn't generate manpages. You have to
use third-party tools for this purpose. Also you have to worry about
the output format produced, when writing the source file. For example,
you cannot use mathematical formulae, when producing HTML (or any other
non-TeX format) output. They are skipped silently.

I suggest using LaTeX for educational papers and documentation. You can
still produce (ugly) HTML output if desired, but the native
DVI/PDF/PostScript output looks professional and is much easier to read.
It's a lot more printer-friendly, compared to Texinfo output, and most
users are able to read PDF documents online.

By the way: LaTeX is a lot simpler to use. As soon as you're going to
use international characters in Texinfo, you'll know what I mean. The
same thing holds for formulae, tabular data as well as tables of
contents and indices.

But if you're going to write package manuals only, then Texinfo might
already suit you. It's good for writing short usage manuals and
references, but then I'd write a separate in-depth manual with LaTeX.

Regards.
David Kastrup
2006-01-18 09:08:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ertugrul Soeylemez
Post by Robert Lundqvist
I'm thinking about developing the production of manuals we put
together for our teaching. One of the ambitions is to produce HTML
*Texinfo.
*Writing LaTeX-documents and filter them through latex2html or similar.
My question now is if there are any obvious advantages or disadvantages
with these? Are there any other good solutions, such as special packages
for writing manuals (yes, I am aware of LaTeX2man)? Experiences and/or
suggestions would be most welcome.
Texinfo has a lot more native output formats (generated by
makeinfo), including HTML, plain text, Info and others, but
excluding PDF, TeX and DVI.
This is nonsense. You can, obviously, run Texinfo files through TeX,
getting DVI, and PDFTeX for PDF. The latter also gives you links and
bookmarks.
Post by Ertugrul Soeylemez
The latter three output formats can be produced via external
translators like texi2pdf and texi2dvi.
Those are just wrappers for running TeX and stuff.
--
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
UKTUG FAQ: <URL:http://www.tex.ac.uk/cgi-bin/texfaq2html>
Ertugrul Soeylemez
2006-01-19 00:03:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Kastrup
Post by Ertugrul Soeylemez
Texinfo has a lot more native output formats (generated by
makeinfo), including HTML, plain text, Info and others, but
excluding PDF, TeX and DVI.
This is nonsense. You can, obviously, run Texinfo files through TeX,
getting DVI, and PDFTeX for PDF. The latter also gives you links and
bookmarks.
Yes, but makeinfo does not generate output in those formats. And as
said, the quality of the output is much better with LaTeX.
Dan Luecking
2006-01-19 17:29:08 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 01:03:10 +0100, Ertugrul Soeylemez
Post by Ertugrul Soeylemez
Post by David Kastrup
Post by Ertugrul Soeylemez
Texinfo has a lot more native output formats (generated by
makeinfo), including HTML, plain text, Info and others, but
excluding PDF, TeX and DVI.
This is nonsense. You can, obviously, run Texinfo files through TeX,
getting DVI, and PDFTeX for PDF. The latter also gives you links and
bookmarks.
Yes, but makeinfo does not generate output in those formats.
Why on earth would it? Makeinfo is for generating Info files. HTML and
plain text have perhaps been added, but those formats are essentially
trivial modifications of the Info format. Texinfo, as we have been
discussing it, is a file format that is intended to be run through
_either_ tex or makeinfo and produce acceptable output either
printed or hyperlinked. Thus info and dvi are both native formats.

And .texi _is_ a TeX format, so saying "excluding ... TeX..." is just
wrong.


Dan
To reply by email, change LookInSig to luecking
Ertugrul Soeylemez
2006-01-21 03:37:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Luecking
On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 01:03:10 +0100, Ertugrul Soeylemez
Post by Ertugrul Soeylemez
Yes, but makeinfo does not generate output in those formats.
Why on earth would it? Makeinfo is for generating Info files. HTML and
plain text have perhaps been added, but those formats are essentially
trivial modifications of the Info format. Texinfo, as we have been
discussing it, is a file format that is intended to be run through
_either_ tex or makeinfo and produce acceptable output either printed
or hyperlinked. Thus info and dvi are both native formats.
And .texi _is_ a TeX format, so saying "excluding ... TeX..." is just
wrong.
My statement still holds. Makeinfo does _not_ generate TeX, PDF, DVI,
PS or other similar formats. It generates hypertext or plain-text
output only.

Regards.

Torsten Bronger
2006-01-18 10:28:55 UTC
Permalink
Hallöchen!
[...] However, though it sounds attractive, it's mainly intended
to be used for software package documentation. Hence the output
is not of half of the quality of LaTeX documents.
The output quality is not a real issue anymore (see my other
posting), however, I agree that some markup tags are missing.
Note that Texinfo doesn't generate manpages. [...]
Neither does LaTeX. I suspect that it's a lot easier to create an
automatic conversion to mapages from Texinfo though.
Also you have to worry about the output format produced, when
writing the source file. For example, you cannot use mathematical
formulae, when producing HTML (or any other non-TeX format)
output.
This is correct. But does it matter to the original poster?
They are skipped silently.
No, they are passed to the output verbatim which makes it at least
understandable. For very simple formulas it even doesn't matter.
I suggest using LaTeX for educational papers and documentation.
You can still produce (ugly) HTML output if desired, but the
native DVI/PDF/PostScript output looks professional and is much
easier to read.
This advice may be a good one, unfortunately the information Robert
provided is not enough for real decision help.
[...]
By the way: LaTeX is a lot simpler to use. As soon as you're
going to use international characters in Texinfo, you'll know what
I mean.
At least the Latin-1 set works with Texinfo. I wrote in German and
was able to input the umlauts directly.
The same thing holds for formulae, tabular data as well as tables
of contents and indices.
For formulae and (complex!) tables this is true.
But if you're going to write package manuals only, then Texinfo
might already suit you. It's good for writing short usage manuals
and references, but then I'd write a separate in-depth manual with
LaTeX.
Well, it's not about length or depth of the manual you're writing
but about the complexity of certain parts of it. If you really rely
on complex tables and formulae, Texinfo is not (yet) suitable for
the job. On the other hand, the big advantages of Texinfo are that
it forces you to keep things simple, and that conversions to HTML,
DocBook, and LaTeX are guaranteed to work.

Tschö,
Torsten.
--
Torsten Bronger, aquisgrana, europa vetus ICQ 264-296-646
Ertugrul Soeylemez
2006-01-19 00:35:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Torsten Bronger
Hallöchen!
Tach auch. =)
Post by Torsten Bronger
[...] However, though it sounds attractive, it's mainly intended to
be used for software package documentation. Hence the output is not
of half of the quality of LaTeX documents.
The output quality is not a real issue anymore (see my other posting),
however, I agree that some markup tags are missing.
Which other posting exactly? I can find only one in this thread, where
you're not talking about quality.
Post by Torsten Bronger
Note that Texinfo doesn't generate manpages. [...]
Neither does LaTeX. I suspect that it's a lot easier to create an
automatic conversion to mapages from Texinfo though.
If you write LaTeX documents properly, then a simple (but long)
sed-expression would do it.
Post by Torsten Bronger
Also you have to worry about the output format produced, when
writing the source file. For example, you cannot use mathematical
formulae, when producing HTML (or any other non-TeX format) output.
This is correct. But does it matter to the original poster?
I suggest using LaTeX for educational papers and documentation. You
can still produce (ugly) HTML output if desired, but the native
DVI/PDF/PostScript output looks professional and is much easier to read.
This advice may be a good one, unfortunately the information Robert
provided is not enough for real decision help.
I don't know, so I mention that independently.
Post by Torsten Bronger
They are skipped silently.
No, they are passed to the output verbatim which makes it at least
understandable. For very simple formulas it even doesn't matter.
That's true, I'm sorry. But as soon as you have something like \sin(x),
then you're getting into trouble. Also including formulae is more
difficult in Texinfo. I don't know, if he'd ever need that feature, but
he's talking about teaching, so I silently assume so.
Post by Torsten Bronger
By the way: LaTeX is a lot simpler to use. As soon as you're going
to use international characters in Texinfo, you'll know what I mean.
At least the Latin-1 set works with Texinfo. I wrote in German and
was able to input the umlauts directly.
For whatever reason, I had to filter my umlauts through sed to produce
the appropriate Texinfo tags like @"a or @"o -- and yes, I've used
@documentencoding, and yes, my editor was set to produce latin-1 (which
worked correctly).
Post by Torsten Bronger
The same thing holds for formulae, tabular data as well as tables of
contents and indices.
For formulae and (complex!) tables this is true.
It is also true for TOC, if you'd like to use accents. Indices in
Texinfo are okay, but LaTeX provides much more flexibility.
Post by Torsten Bronger
But if you're going to write package manuals only, then Texinfo
might already suit you. It's good for writing short usage manuals
and references, but then I'd write a separate in-depth manual with
LaTeX.
Well, it's not about length or depth of the manual you're writing but
about the complexity of certain parts of it. If you really rely on
complex tables and formulae, Texinfo is not (yet) suitable for the
job. On the other hand, the big advantages of Texinfo are that it
forces you to keep things simple, and that conversions to HTML,
DocBook, and LaTeX are guaranteed to work.
Depth is in some way related to complexity. Regarding HTML and DocBook
output you're right (unfortunately). Keeping things simple is not
always the right thing to do. Sometimes you just need complex tables.

What I really dislike about Texinfo is that if the output in one format
looks perfect, it doesn't mean that it's even readable in another. I
had to use @iftex, @ifhtml and @ifinfo quite often. LaTeX guarantees
that the output looks good _and_ is readable, giving more priority to
the latter.


Regards.
Torsten Bronger
2006-01-19 07:27:52 UTC
Permalink
Hallöchen!
Post by Ertugrul Soeylemez
Post by Torsten Bronger
[...] However, though it sounds attractive, it's mainly
intended to be used for software package documentation. Hence
the output is not of half of the quality of LaTeX documents.
The output quality is not a real issue anymore (see my other
posting), however, I agree that some markup tags are missing.
Which other posting exactly? I can find only one in this thread,
where you're not talking about quality.
Then follow the link and have a look at the examples.
Post by Ertugrul Soeylemez
Post by Torsten Bronger
Note that Texinfo doesn't generate manpages. [...]
Neither does LaTeX. I suspect that it's a lot easier to create an
automatic conversion to mapages from Texinfo though.
If you write LaTeX documents properly, then a simple (but long)
sed-expression would do it.
Well, then "properly" means "limiting to a small subset of LaTeXs
abilities".
Post by Ertugrul Soeylemez
[...]
Post by Torsten Bronger
They are skipped silently.
No, they are passed to the output verbatim which makes it at least
understandable. For very simple formulas it even doesn't matter.
That's true, I'm sorry. But as soon as you have something like \sin(x),
then you're getting into trouble. [...]
Well, it's printed "\sin(x)". Where's the problem?
Post by Ertugrul Soeylemez
Post by Torsten Bronger
[...]
At least the Latin-1 set works with Texinfo. I wrote in German
and was able to input the umlauts directly.
For whatever reason, I had to filter my umlauts through sed to
latin-1 (which worked correctly).
You're right, this feature is pretty new.
Post by Ertugrul Soeylemez
Post by Torsten Bronger
The same thing holds for formulae, tabular data as well as
tables of contents and indices.
For formulae and (complex!) tables this is true.
It is also true for TOC, if you'd like to use accents.
I didn't have trouble with that either.
Post by Ertugrul Soeylemez
[...]
Post by Torsten Bronger
[...]
Well, it's not about length or depth of the manual you're writing
but about the complexity of certain parts of it. If you really
rely on complex tables and formulae, Texinfo is not (yet)
suitable for the job. [...]
Depth is in some way related to complexity.
It *may* be related to it. The GNU documentation, for example, is
both long and complex as far as contents is concerned. However, it
doesn't use formulae (extensively) nor things like column-spans in
tables. Therefore, it can be realised in Texinfo very conveniently.
Post by Ertugrul Soeylemez
[...]
What I really dislike about Texinfo is that if the output in one
format looks perfect, it doesn't mean that it's even readable in
another.
Can you give an example?

Tschö,
Torsten.
--
Torsten Bronger, aquisgrana, europa vetus ICQ 264-296-646
Ertugrul Soeylemez
2006-01-19 13:21:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Torsten Bronger
Post by Ertugrul Soeylemez
Post by Torsten Bronger
Note that Texinfo doesn't generate manpages. [...]
Neither does LaTeX. I suspect that it's a lot easier to create an
automatic conversion to mapages from Texinfo though.
If you write LaTeX documents properly, then a simple (but long)
sed-expression would do it.
Well, then "properly" means "limiting to a small subset of LaTeXs
abilities".
Not necessarily. You then just shouldn't make use of complex tables.
Post by Torsten Bronger
Post by Ertugrul Soeylemez
That's true, I'm sorry. But as soon as you have something like
\sin(x), then you're getting into trouble. [...]
Well, it's printed "\sin(x)". Where's the problem?
But I don't want that backslash in the output, and there is no way to
prevent it. If you just write "sin(x)", then "sin" is assumed to mean a
multiplication of 's', 'i' and 'n', and thus may be typeset in a
different way or font style.
Post by Torsten Bronger
Post by Ertugrul Soeylemez
Post by Torsten Bronger
The same thing holds for formulae, tabular data as well as tables
of contents and indices.
For formulae and (complex!) tables this is true.
It is also true for TOC, if you'd like to use accents.
I didn't have trouble with that either.
In Info output the TOC contains the node names, and there are rather
nasty limitations about them. Here is an excerpt from the Texinfo
manual:

| * @-commands in node names are not allowed. This includes
| punctuation characters that are escaped with a `@', such as `@' and
| `{', and accent commands such as `@''. (For a few cases when this
| is useful, Texinfo has limited support for using @-commands in
| node names; see *Note Pointer Validation::.) Perhaps this
| limitation will be removed some day.
|
| * Unfortunately, you cannot use periods, commas, colons or
| parentheses within a node name; these confuse the Texinfo
| processors. Perhaps this limitation will be removed some day, too.
|
| For example, the following is a section title in this manual:
|
| @code{@@unnumberedsec}, @code{@@appendixsec}, @code{@@heading}
|
| But the corresponding node name lacks the commas and the @'s:
|
| unnumberedsec appendixsec heading
Post by Torsten Bronger
Post by Ertugrul Soeylemez
What I really dislike about Texinfo is that if the output in one
format looks perfect, it doesn't mean that it's even readable in
another.
Can you give an example?
It already starts with the TOC. In HTML it's printed twice (once with
subnodes (the @menu) and once with top level nodes only (the
@contents)), so I need to enclose @contents in an @ifnothtml-block. I'd
like to emphasize a word, and it's okay in HTML output, but in Info and
plain-text output it's printed in single-quotes, and that's not what I
want. It sets all variables (@var) to upper-case in non-TeX output.
That's _really_ bad. All in all, TeX output looks good in almost all
cases, but I've had trouble even there.


Regards.
Torsten Bronger
2006-01-19 14:01:45 UTC
Permalink
Hallöchen!
Post by Ertugrul Soeylemez
Post by Torsten Bronger
Post by Ertugrul Soeylemez
Post by Torsten Bronger
Note that Texinfo doesn't generate manpages. [...]
Neither does LaTeX. I suspect that it's a lot easier to create
an automatic conversion to mapages from Texinfo though.
If you write LaTeX documents properly, then a simple (but long)
sed-expression would do it.
Well, then "properly" means "limiting to a small subset of LaTeXs
abilities".
Not necessarily. You then just shouldn't make use of complex
tables.
And no bibliographical references, no \newcommands, no images.
(With Texinfo, you can define an ASCII version of an image.) Be
that as it may, the sed expression would probably be the longest
every written by a human, *and* you'd have to write LaTeX with
having the converter in mind. (Such a converter exists already.)
With Texinfo, a conversion is pretty easy to achieve via the XML
output, and you would no have to define a special subset.
Post by Ertugrul Soeylemez
Post by Torsten Bronger
Post by Ertugrul Soeylemez
That's true, I'm sorry. But as soon as you have something like
\sin(x), then you're getting into trouble. [...]
Well, it's printed "\sin(x)". Where's the problem?
But I don't want that backslash in the output, and there is no way
to prevent it.
I didn't say "beautiful", I said "understandable".
Post by Ertugrul Soeylemez
[...]
Post by Torsten Bronger
Post by Ertugrul Soeylemez
Post by Torsten Bronger
The same thing holds for formulae, tabular data as well as
tables of contents and indices.
For formulae and (complex!) tables this is true.
It is also true for TOC, if you'd like to use accents.
I didn't have trouble with that either.
In Info output the TOC contains the node names, and there are
rather nasty limitations about them.
But you don't see them in the printed document.
Post by Ertugrul Soeylemez
[...]
Post by Torsten Bronger
Post by Ertugrul Soeylemez
What I really dislike about Texinfo is that if the output in one
format looks perfect, it doesn't mean that it's even readable in
another.
Can you give an example?
It already starts with the TOC. In HTML it's printed twice (once
@contents)), so I need to enclose @contents in an
@ifnothtml-block.
First, that's far away from being "unreadable". And then, you can
switch it off with the CSS directive "ul.class { display: none }".
Have you tried the separate Texinfo-HTML converter?
Post by Ertugrul Soeylemez
I'd like to emphasize a word, and it's okay in HTML output, but in
Info and plain-text output it's printed in single-quotes, and
that's not what I want.
My Texinfo uses _this_ to emphasise in Info. (I didn't try Plain
Text.) Besides, I don't see the comparison to LaTeX here.
But not in HTML, too. Moreover, @var is for metasyntactic
variables. If you want to markup code variables, you have to use
@samp or @code.

Tschö,
Torsten.
--
Torsten Bronger, aquisgrana, europa vetus ICQ 264-296-646
Ertugrul Soeylemez
2006-01-19 15:55:29 UTC
Permalink
Well, we could be discussing this forever. Both LaTeX and Texinfo have
their uses. To keep it short: Whatever you could do with Texinfo, you
can do it as well with LaTeX and get better end results. On the other
hand, LaTeX is not really suitable for short command-line usage
documentations. You won't turn them into PDF/PS/DVI anyway, so here
Texinfo comes in handy.

Regards.
Karl Berry
2006-01-18 18:40:52 UTC
Permalink
In addition to all the info from others, here is my take on it - use
Texinfo if you find Texinfo's output formatting "good enough". It is
not trivial to change the formatting, so if you want different fonts,
different chapter headings, different page layout, and so on, you'll do
well to use LaTeX, which has plenty of packages to configure everything
conceivable.

makeinfo's HTML output can be modified somewhat using css. A separate
package, texi2html, has even more configurable html output.

You can get (IMHO) decent HTML output from LaTeX using tex4ht.
latex2html is another option, but I have less experience with it.

Regards,
Karl (Texinfo maintainer)
Torsten Bronger
2006-01-19 07:34:27 UTC
Permalink
Hallöchen!
Post by Karl Berry
In addition to all the info from others, here is my take on it -
use Texinfo if you find Texinfo's output formatting "good enough".
It is not trivial to change the formatting, [...]
However, if you want to have LaTeX-like layout configuration and
beautiful printout, it should be bearable to install texi2latex.
Granted, people who want to re-typeset your document get the bland
version by default but it's okay nevertheless, and you can make the
beautiful version available, too.

Tschö,
Torsten.
--
Torsten Bronger, aquisgrana, europa vetus ICQ 264-296-646
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