Discussion:
adding 'ownership' apostrophes to authors names in natbib
(too old to reply)
c***@gmail.com
2006-11-18 20:38:58 UTC
Permalink
Hi

I'm wondering if there's any way to cite an author as an 'owner' in
natbib. eg "Jackson's (1980) argument was that.." (note the apostrophe
added to the author's name).

As best as I can get is to write the author's name as I wish it to
appear and cite the year only. For the above example this would be:

Jackson's \citeyearpar{Jackson1980} argument was that..

Which seems somehow inelegant. If there's a natbib command which
explicitly produces this result, I'd be really happy to hear about it.

Many thanks,

Pete
Alan Munn
2006-11-19 02:05:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@gmail.com
Hi
I'm wondering if there's any way to cite an author as an 'owner' in
natbib. eg "Jackson's (1980) argument was that.." (note the apostrophe
added to the author's name).
As best as I can get is to write the author's name as I wish it to
Jackson's \citeyearpar{Jackson1980} argument was that..
Which seems somehow inelegant. If there's a natbib command which
explicitly produces this result, I'd be really happy to hear about it.
As a first attempt, something like this seems to work:

\newcommand{\citeposs}[1]{\citeauthor{#1}'s \citeyearpar{#1}}

Alan
David Kastrup
2006-11-19 08:51:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@gmail.com
I'm wondering if there's any way to cite an author as an 'owner' in
natbib. eg "Jackson's (1980) argument was that.." (note the apostrophe
added to the author's name).
As best as I can get is to write the author's name as I wish it to
Jackson's \citeyearpar{Jackson1980} argument was that..
Which seems somehow inelegant. If there's a natbib command which
explicitly produces this result, I'd be really happy to hear about it.
\cite{Jackson1980} argues that ...

The argument of \cite{Jackson1980} was that ...

Really, there are are a number of ways to phrase this without having
to go to weird typesetting.
--
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
UKTUG FAQ: <URL:http://www.tex.ac.uk/cgi-bin/texfaq2html>
Erik Quaeghebeur
2006-11-20 22:02:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Kastrup
Post by c***@gmail.com
I'm wondering if there's any way to cite an author as an 'owner' in
natbib. eg "Jackson's (1980) argument was that.." (note the apostrophe
added to the author's name).
As best as I can get is to write the author's name as I wish it to
Jackson's \citeyearpar{Jackson1980} argument was that..
Which seems somehow inelegant. If there's a natbib command which
explicitly produces this result, I'd be really happy to hear about it.
\cite{Jackson1980} argues that ...
The argument of \cite{Jackson1980} was that ...
Really, there are are a number of ways to phrase this without having
to go to weird typesetting.
I must disagree with you on calling this weird typesetting.

1. The feature is useful: I use the "\citeauthor{}'s \citeyearpar{}" trick
from time to time because it is yet another way of formulating things,
which gives authors more flexibility to write less repetitive texts.
2. The latex syntax part can be taken over by a newcommand such as
\newcommand{\citetpossessive}[1]{\citeauthor{#1}'s \citeyearpar{#1}},
which only leaves the optional argument part unused (could be handled,
I suppose).
3. It seems natbib contains far weirder commands. For example:
capitalizing von-parts with the \Cite(t/p)-commands, who needs it when
you can reformulate your sentence...

I think it would be a nice feature to have included in natbib (including
correct hyperref interaction). Does (anyone know if) Patrick Daly accept
feature requests?

Erik
David Kastrup
2006-11-20 22:26:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Erik Quaeghebeur
Post by David Kastrup
Post by c***@gmail.com
Jackson's \citeyearpar{Jackson1980} argument was that..
Which seems somehow inelegant. If there's a natbib command which
explicitly produces this result, I'd be really happy to hear about it.
\cite{Jackson1980} argues that ...
The argument of \cite{Jackson1980} was that ...
Really, there are are a number of ways to phrase this without having
to go to weird typesetting.
I must disagree with you on calling this weird typesetting.
It inserts grammatical changes in the _middle_ of a string used for
referencing things.
Post by Erik Quaeghebeur
1. The feature is useful: I use the "\citeauthor{}'s \citeyearpar{}" trick
from time to time because it is yet another way of formulating things,
which gives authors more flexibility to write less repetitive texts.
I don't see how this would make the practice unweird. I can also
write a sentence backwards in order to be less repetitive, but that
does not make it a good idea.
Post by Erik Quaeghebeur
2. The latex syntax part can be taken over by a newcommand such as
\newcommand{\citetpossessive}[1]{\citeauthor{#1}'s \citeyearpar{#1}},
which only leaves the optional argument part unused (could be handled,
I suppose).
What has the possibility for an implementation to do with whether
something is to be considered weird typesetting?
Post by Erik Quaeghebeur
capitalizing von-parts with the \Cite(t/p)-commands, who needs it when
you can reformulate your sentence...
But that _capitalizes_ at the _beginning_ of a reference tag, and does
not insert material into the middle of it. The sorting signature, for
example, stays the same.
Post by Erik Quaeghebeur
I think it would be a nice feature to have included in natbib
(including correct hyperref interaction). Does (anyone know if)
Patrick Daly accept feature requests?
Well, you'll find that flexing references will be a lot of _different_
fun in different languages, too...
--
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
UKTUG FAQ: <URL:http://www.tex.ac.uk/cgi-bin/texfaq2html>
Alan Munn
2006-11-21 03:25:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Kastrup
Post by Erik Quaeghebeur
Post by David Kastrup
Post by c***@gmail.com
Jackson's \citeyearpar{Jackson1980} argument was that..
Which seems somehow inelegant. If there's a natbib command which
explicitly produces this result, I'd be really happy to hear about it.
\cite{Jackson1980} argues that ...
The argument of \cite{Jackson1980} was that ...
Really, there are are a number of ways to phrase this without having
to go to weird typesetting.
I thought I wouldn't jump into this debate, but here goes (and we're now
pretty much off topic.) The fact is that linguistically in English, the
possessive construction simply doesn't have an exact paraphrase, and so
as far as I can tell, you are suggesting that one avoids writing
something simply because it produces "weird" typesetting.
Post by David Kastrup
It inserts grammatical changes in the _middle_ of a string used for
referencing things.
Post by Erik Quaeghebeur
1. The feature is useful: I use the "\citeauthor{}'s \citeyearpar{}" trick
from time to time because it is yet another way of formulating things,
which gives authors more flexibility to write less repetitive texts.
I don't see how this would make the practice unweird. I can also
write a sentence backwards in order to be less repetitive, but that
does not make it a good idea.
Sure, but English of part not is sentence backward the, so this is
comparing apples with oranges.

The English possessive construction has a number of properties that make
it useful to use in exactly the situations we are discussing.

In a structure like "Smith's 1999 analysis" you are able to refer to
Smith using a pronoun in subsequent sentences as in (1a) below. This
doesn't work for other ways of citing (ungrammatical sentences marked
with an asterisk). (These are assumed to have no prior mention of Smith.)

(1) a. Smith's 1999 analysis showed that he had understood ...
b. *Smith 1999 showed that he had understood ...
c. *The analysis of Smith 1999 showed that he had understood ...

This same property also allows for use in sentences relating directly to
the person and not the article. For example: "Smith's 1999
insight/discovery/breakthrough"

What appears to be the closest equivalent of "X's Y", namely "the Y of
X" are simply not equivalent in English. Some examples:

(2) a. John's brother
b. *The brother of John
c. His brother
d. *The brother of him
Post by David Kastrup
Post by Erik Quaeghebeur
2. The latex syntax part can be taken over by a newcommand such as
\newcommand{\citetpossessive}[1]{\citeauthor{#1}'s \citeyearpar{#1}},
which only leaves the optional argument part unused (could be handled,
I suppose).
What has the possibility for an implementation to do with whether
something is to be considered weird typesetting?
But if it's not the implementation that's weird, what exactly is weird,
English itself? The construction is commonly used in English. Shouldn't
LaTeX be able to typeset it?

By now we've obviously scared the OP away but hopefully he'll be happy
enough with my and Erik's suggestions.
Post by David Kastrup
Post by Erik Quaeghebeur
I think it would be a nice feature to have included in natbib
(including correct hyperref interaction). Does (anyone know if)
Patrick Daly accept feature requests?
He does. (But doesn't have much time to address them.)

Alan
David Kastrup
2006-11-21 09:22:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Munn
In a structure like "Smith's 1999 analysis" you are able to refer to
Smith using a pronoun in subsequent sentences as in (1a) below.
But that converts "Smith 1999" from a citation reference to separate
parts of a sentence. You could equally well demand support of

"It was in 1999 that Smith chose to write an analysis that..."

Sure, it is perfectly fine literary English, but it fails to be
distinguishable as a formal bibliographical reference.

And that's what is making it weird in this application.
--
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
UKTUG FAQ: <URL:http://www.tex.ac.uk/cgi-bin/texfaq2html>
Erik Quaeghebeur
2006-11-21 20:07:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Kastrup
Post by Alan Munn
In a structure like "Smith's 1999 analysis" you are able to refer to
Smith using a pronoun in subsequent sentences as in (1a) below.
But that converts "Smith 1999" from a citation reference to separate
parts of a sentence. You could equally well demand support of
"It was in 1999 that Smith chose to write an analysis that..."
Sure, it is perfectly fine literary English, but it fails to be
distinguishable as a formal bibliographical reference.
And that's what is making it weird in this application.
Agreed, but only when no other visual clues are provided. For example, I
use square brackets in text mode only for references, a very clear visual
clue.

David, even though I value your input, I'm not convinced by your arguments
(feel free to advance more) and consider this mostly an implementation
issue. It is for the users to decide the wierdness factor.

I'll contact Patrick Daly and refer to this thread, so he can make up his
own mind. (BTW, Patrick, if you read this: natbib is one of my favorite
packages! ;-) )


Erik
Jellby
2006-11-25 15:41:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Erik Quaeghebeur
Post by David Kastrup
But that converts "Smith 1999" from a citation reference to separate
parts of a sentence. You could equally well demand support of
"It was in 1999 that Smith chose to write an analysis that..."
[...]
David, even though I value your input, I'm not convinced by your arguments
(feel free to advance more) and consider this mostly an implementation
issue. It is for the users to decide the wierdness factor.
I agree with David in that you are not really using an author-year citation
style, but you need the author and year to be explicitly *author* and
*year* for the sentence to make sense. Think about what happens when you
convert it to a numerical citation style:

Smith's 1999 analysis showed that he had understood ...
[7] analysis showed that he understood ...

In a case like this, if you need author and year whatever the citation
style, \citeauthor and \citeyear should be used.
--
Ignacio __ Fernández Galván
/ /\
Linux user / / \ PGP Pub Key
#289967 / / /\ \ 0x01A95F99
/ / /\ \ \
http://djelibeibi.unex.es
/________\ \ \
jellby \___________\/ yahoo.com
k***@alldial.net
2006-11-27 13:20:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jellby
I agree with David in that you are not really using an author-year citation
style, but you need the author and year to be explicitly *author* and
*year* for the sentence to make sense. Think about what happens when you
Smith's 1999 analysis showed that he had understood ...
[7] analysis showed that he understood ...
In a case like this, if you need author and year whatever the citation
style, \citeauthor and \citeyear should be used.
He's trying to use an author-year citation, but he got it wrong.
Effectively, he wrote

Jackson's (in his article 1980) argument....

which is illiterate. He should have written

Jackson's argument (in his article 1980)....

k***@alldial.net
2006-11-23 14:20:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@gmail.com
Hi
I'm wondering if there's any way to cite an author as an 'owner' in
natbib. eg "Jackson's (1980) argument was that.." (note the apostrophe
added to the author's name).
This should be "Jackson's argument (1980) ... " (see Chicago Manual
16.15, 16.17) unless you actually meant "Jackson's 1980 argument..."
i.e., the one he made in 1980 rather than a citation.
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